Help with a hypothetical rating...

[DJgreen_72]

Starting up a historical universe running from 1988 forward. Looking to sim a rematch between Hagler & Leonard sometime in 1988, most likely at SMW or LHW...I have ratings for Leonard but looking for some help with a post-prime but still dangerous Marvelous One out for revenge (preferably at LHW)

Thanks in advance

[bob_bask]

Haven't road tested rating a great deal, but suppose you'll tinkle with it until it's right.

[DJgreen_72]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

Haven't road tested rating a great deal, but suppose you'll tinkle with it until it's right.

Thanks, looks similar to the auto-generated ratings for Hagler at Post-Prime MW...

I tweaked his Punching Power and Defense up slightly to get him to an overall rating of 10 - same as Leonard

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by DJgreen_72

Thanks, looks similar to the auto-generated ratings for Hagler at Post-Prime MW...

I tweaked his Punching Power and Defense up slightly to get him to an overall rating of 10 - same as Leonard

The Hitting Power rating was one I kept going back to when creating the rating. An increase of only one impacts the overall rating, 9>10.

[DJgreen_72]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

The Hitting Power rating was one I kept going back to when creating the rating. An increase of only one impacts the overall rating, 9>10.

I raised his hitting power +1 , lowered his control vs boxer -1 (he struggled with Leonard's speed and "shifty-ness" in their first fight), I also tweaked the punching & counterpunching, defense and conditioning to keep his rating at 10

ran the fight...SuperFight II, Hagler vs Leonard - Jan 1988 - 12rds for the vacant WBO Light HeavyWeight Title

the rules favored Leonard (again) 3 Ko rule - Mandatory 8 - fighter can be saved by the bell in ANY round - the referee (again) is Richard Steele...

Fight was about what you'd expect...Leonard danced and threw a ton of jabs and "pitter patter" combos...Hagler stalked him and landed the much harder punches, with a big advantage in hooks and crosses...Hagler was stunned a few times, but Leonard was hurt often...Sugar Ray threw nearly 1,100 punches to @ 650 from Hagler but number landed was very close thanks to a much more accurate Hagler...

Hagler lands a series of punches in Round 4 that begin some swelling under Ray's right eye...by the late rounds the swelling in fairly severe

A wicked uppercut put Leonard down at the end of round 5, but the count was stopped at 2...Sugar Ray was saved by the bell!

Hagler seemingly controled the fight and all three judges score the bout 114-113 for...Sugar Ray Leonard!

Looks like SuperFight III won't be far off!

Thanks again for the ratings btw

[DJgreen_72]

Here's the rating I came up with

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by DJgreen_72

Here's the rating I came up with

Only rating I would argue for is that the conditioning remains a 1.

Despite whatever scars Hagler might have suffered mentality from the Leonard fight and any erosion of his boxing abilities thereafter, I'm of the opinion Hagler would always train and be ready to fight, 100% in condition.

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by DJgreen_72

I raised his hitting power +1 , lowered his control vs boxer -1 (he struggled with Leonard's speed and "shifty-ness" in their first fight), I also tweaked the punching & counterpunching, defense and conditioning to keep his rating at 10

ran the fight...SuperFight II, Hagler vs Leonard - Jan 1988 - 12rds for the vacant WBO Light HeavyWeight Title

the rules favored Leonard (again) 3 Ko rule - Mandatory 8 - fighter can be saved by the bell in ANY round - the referee (again) is Richard Steele...

Fight was about what you'd expect...Leonard danced and threw a ton of jabs and "pitter patter" combos...Hagler stalked him and landed the much harder punches, with a big advantage in hooks and crosses...Hagler was stunned a few times, but Leonard was hurt often...Sugar Ray threw nearly 1,100 punches to @ 650 from Hagler but number landed was very close thanks to a much more accurate Hagler...

Hagler lands a series of punches in Round 4 that begin some swelling under Ray's right eye...by the late rounds the swelling in fairly severe

A wicked uppercut put Leonard down at the end of round 5, but the count was stopped at 2...Sugar Ray was saved by the bell!

Hagler seemingly controled the fight and all three judges score the bout 114-113 for...Sugar Ray Leonard!

Looks like SuperFight III won't be far off!

Thanks again for the ratings btw

Sound like a good fight to watch unfold.

Trilogy? Who would they have fought to generate interest in 3rd meeting

[DJgreen_72]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

Only rating I would argue for is that the conditioning remains a 1.

Despite whatever scars Hagler might have suffered mentality from the Leonard fight and any erosion of his boxing abilities thereafter, I'm of the opinion Hagler would always train and be ready to fight, 100% in condition.

Your probably right...I was going on the fact that Hagler was nearly 34, this (fictional) fight was only his 4th in about 3 1/2 years, plus the weight gain moving up to LHW, but yeah dude was a beast...he (and Sugar Ray) both came into the fight in top condition though, so no harm no foul

As far as generating interest? I'm thinking Leonard will face off with Donny LaLonde (whom he fought in Nov 1988 in the real world) to unify the WBO & WBC LHW belts, while Hagler works the ESPN/Sports Radio interview circuit, taunting Sugar Ray until Leonard agrees to a final showdown..."He never beat me...he knows it...everyone knows it...you all saw him down on the canvas...Sugar Ray stole the belt!"

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by DJgreen_72

As far as generating interest? I'm thinking Leonard will face off with Donny LaLonde (whom he fought in Nov 1988 in the real world) to unify the WBO & WBC LHW belts, while Hagler works the ESPN/Sports Radio interview circuit, taunting Sugar Ray until Leonard agrees to a final showdown..."He never beat me...he knows it...everyone knows it...you all saw him down on the canvas...Sugar Ray stole the belt!"

I can see that playing out, my thinking was perhaps a Hagler vs. Czyz match-up? Imagine they would of even made it an title eliminator contest.

So the 3rd would take place 1989?

[DJgreen_72]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

I can see that playing out, my thinking was perhaps a Hagler vs. Czyz match-up? Imagine they would of even made it an title eliminator contest.

So the 3rd would take place 1989?

I'm thinking Hagler will stick with the Leonard or retirement mind set...Czyz is popular and highly regarded, but doesn't hold any of the belts at this point...I'm thinking summer of 1988 Leonard vs LaLonde and assuming Sugar Ray wins, Hagler/Leonard III in early 1989 for the WBO & WBC titles, with undefeated WBA champion Virgil Hill (20-0-0 (13KO)) waiting for his chance to unify 3 of the 4 major belts sometime in 1989. (Prince Charles Williams holds the IBF crown...maybe Hill vs Williams in 88 to combine WBA & IBF?)

(I suppose I should say in my uni, the WBO isn't just another "alphabet soup" body that broke away from the WBC, but a group of investors and promoters trying to "clean up" boxing, end the grip promoters like King have on the sport and unify all the belts in each division to create undisputed champions at each weight)

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

I can see that playing out, my thinking was perhaps a Hagler vs. Czyz match-up? Imagine they would of even made it an title eliminator contest.

Checked Czyz ranking during 1988;

Ring Magazine - 6 (Post Andries loss, 3 Prior)
IBF - 7 (October 1988)
WBC - 9 (September 1988)

Perhaps not a title eliminator contest then, but think would generate plenty of "casual fan" interest. Both coming off losses, both name boxers.

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by DJgreen_72

I'm thinking Hagler will stick with the Leonard or retirement mind set...Czyz is popular and highly regarded, but doesn't hold any of the belts at this point...I'm thinking summer of 1988 Leonard vs LaLonde and assuming Sugar Ray wins, Hagler/Leonard III in early 1989 for the WBO & WBC titles, with undefeated WBA champion Virgil Hill (20-0-0 (13KO)) waiting for his chance to unify 3 of the 4 major belts sometime in 1989. (Prince Charles Williams holds the IBF crown...maybe Hill vs Williams in 88 to combine WBA & IBF?)

Hill did feature in my thoughts for this period, so too did Williams. Leonard/Hagler versus either of those, haven't thought about those match-ups before if honest.

(I suppose I should say in my uni, the WBO isn't just another "alphabet soup" body that broke away from the WBC, but a group of investors and promoters trying to "clean up" boxing, end the grip promoters like King have on the sport and unify all the belts in each division to create undisputed champions at each weight)

How have they conquered the issue of the mandatory defenses? I think no money could ever bring the WBA and WBC to agree on a top ten divisional list.

[DJgreen_72]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

Checked Czyz ranking during 1988;

Ring Magazine - 6 (Post Andries loss, 3 Prior)
IBF - 7 (October 1988)
WBC - 9 (September 1988)

Perhaps not a title eliminator contest then, but think would generate plenty of "casual fan" interest. Both coming off losses, both name boxers.

Definitely would be atleast a big HBO or Showtime event, but would Hagler take the fight? He pretty much retired once Sugar Ray wouldn't give him a rematch...have to think on that one

[DJgreen_72]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

Hill did feature in my thoughts for this period, so too did Williams. Leonard/Hagler versus either of those, haven't thought about those match-ups before if honest.



How have they conquered the issue of the mandatory defenses? I think no money could ever bring the WBA and WBC to agree on a top ten divisional list.

Hill is still somewhat untested but dangerous, would have been interesting to see how he matched up to some of the "legends" of the era (he lost to Hearns in 1991)...

As far as the WBA/WBC...yeah it's fiction but a fun "What If"...I haven't put that much thought into it but I guess a handful of millionaires and billionaires, Donald Trump types, are behind the new WBO...maybe with some connections in Congress (a few Congressional hearings into fight fixing, PED usage and possible collusion/anti-trust issues to scare the Don King's and WBA/WBC/IBF into playing ball) plus the the egos of the fighters themselves...

For example: On the Hagler/Leonard undercard, undefeated Hector Camacho moved up to lightweight and completely dominated an aging Alexis Arguello for the WBO LW title...how long will Julio Cesar Chavez (57-0 WBA champ) sit around while the undefeated Camacho calls him a coward and declares himself the "real world champion"? A young 15-0 Pernell Whitaker will no doubt have something to say about it, and how long before WBC champ Livingstone Bramble wants his shot at the moniker of "undisputed" champion???

Highly fictional premise to be sure, but don't we all wanna know what modern boxing would look like if the best fighters always fought for the undisputed championship?

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by DJgreen_72

Definitely would be atleast a big HBO or Showtime event, but would Hagler take the fight? He pretty much retired once Sugar Ray wouldn't give him a rematch...have to think on that one

I always admired the way Hagler walked away from the sport...

...but if he came back for the Leonard rematch and lost, albeit in controversial circumstance again;

a) Would he just retire? or;

b) Would he continue fighting?

I'm not sure how he would of went, but if he did decide to carry on, I imagine he would of fought twice/three times in a calendar year.

His lack of activity would of been highlighted and analysed (along with all the other aspects) after back-to-back defeats. There would also be a short-term need to re-establish himself as an elite level boxer prior to another super fight.

[DJgreen_72]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

I always admired the way Hagler walked away from the sport...

...but if he came back for the Leonard rematch and lost, albeit in controversial circumstance again;

a) Would he just retire? or;

b) Would he continue fighting?

I'm not sure how he would of went, but if he did decide to carry on, I imagine he would of fought twice/three times in a calendar year.

His lack of activity would of been highlighted and analysed (along with all the other aspects) after back-to-back defeats. There would also be a short-term need to re-establish himself as an elite level boxer prior to another super fight.

Good points...so far the IBF seems willing to unify with the WBO...so now do I go Hagler vs Williams for the IBF title, or Hagler vs Czyz, the bigger money fight most likely...think I will go for Czyz & Hagler...maybe a tune up against a lower level journeyman type first then the big fight with "The Matinee Idol"

and yeah, Hagler walking away instead of hanging on for years afterwards is respectable...from what I read Leonard offered a rematch in 90 or 91, but Hagler declined, happily retired he claimed he once badly wanted the rematch but now was, "over it."

Hagler is one of my all-time favs

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by DJgreen_72

As far as the WBA/WBC...yeah it's fiction but a fun "What If"...I haven't put that much thought into it but I guess a handful of millionaires and billionaires, Donald Trump types, are behind the new WBO...maybe with some connections in Congress (a few Congressional hearings into fight fixing, PED usage and possible collusion/anti-trust issues to scare the Don King's and WBA/WBC/IBF into playing ball) plus the the egos of the fighters themselves...

Something akin to Federal organization. Can see that being an interesting "what if".

For example: On the Hagler/Leonard undercard, undefeated Hector Camacho moved up to lightweight and completely dominated an aging Alexis Arguello for the WBO LW title...how long will Julio Cesar Chavez (57-0 WBA champ) sit around while the undefeated Camacho calls him a coward and declares himself the "real world champion"? A young 15-0 Pernell Whitaker will no doubt have something to say about it, and how long before WBC champ Livingstone Bramble wants his shot at the moniker of "undisputed" champion???

I would still suspect some to be happy with the alphabet title. If they're uncertain of victory, or aware not in same class as another title holder, unless makes financial sense (single title fight (unification contest) in comparison to several defenses of own title) I don't think boxers will do it, I know I probably wouldn't in same situation.

[DJgreen_72]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

Something akin to Federal organization. Can see that being an interesting "what if".



I would still suspect some to be happy with the alphabet title. If they're uncertain of victory, or aware not in same class as another title holder, unless makes financial sense (single title fight (unification contest) in comparison to several defenses of own title) I don't think boxers will do it, I know I probably wouldn't in same situation.

I guess the goal would be, over time, to make the WBO titles, in terms of prestige and public opinion so superior to the others that the biggest fights (and the biggest paydays) would be for the WBO and the other titles would fall to the level of say the current IBA or WBU..and any fighters that refused to compete for the WBO crown would be considered "second-rate, paper champions"

So far Sugar Ray Leonard, while maybe not the best is certainly the most popular champ at LHW..while undefeated Frank Tate stopped undeafeted Mike McCallum on cuts for the WBO Middleweight crown...Tate (who was behind on all three cards at the time of the stoppage) claims to be "Undefeated and Undisputed" MW champ, but the division is stacked in 1988 with Michael "second to" Nunn (as well undefeated)(IBF), Sumbu Kalambay(WBA) & Thomas Hearns(WBC) also holding belts...

Nunn vs Kalambay & Tate vs Hearns as semi-finals with the winners for the undisputed (WBO) crown with McCallum as the first challenger? Never would have happened but if it did, I (and millions of others) woulda payed alot to see that! (ok, I was 15 at the time so I suppose my parents woulda payed for me to see that)

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by DJgreen_72

I guess the goal would be, over time, to make the WBO titles, in terms of prestige and public opinion so superior to the others that the biggest fights (and the biggest paydays) would be for the WBO and the other titles would fall to the level of say the current IBA or WBU..and any fighters that refused to compete for the WBO crown would be considered "second-rate, paper champions"

Monopoly of the market... but for the greater good.

So far Sugar Ray Leonard, while maybe not the best is certainly the most popular champ at LHW..while undefeated Frank Tate stopped undeafeted Mike McCallum on cuts for the WBO Middleweight crown...Tate (who was behind on all three cards at the time of the stoppage) claims to be "Undefeated and Undisputed" MW champ, but the division is stacked in 1988 with Michael "second to" Nunn (as well undefeated)(IBF), Sumbu Kalambay(WBA) & Thomas Hearns(WBC) also holding belts...

Nunn vs Kalambay & Tate vs Hearns as semi-finals with the winners for the undisputed (WBO) crown with McCallum as the first challenger? Never would have happened but if it did, I (and millions of others) woulda payed alot to see that! (ok, I was 15 at the time so I suppose my parents woulda payed for me to see that)

Always exciting when the best go against the best.

Sounds like an entertaining universe, best of luck with it.